tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post8102439428825058218..comments2024-03-09T04:22:11.040-08:00Comments on Catholic Bibles: Guest Post: The Bible, the NAB(RE), and the Lectionary at MassTimothyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12530713931306188305noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-28786837448190086082017-05-28T10:10:52.171-07:002017-05-28T10:10:52.171-07:00Corey,
Search this blog, I (and others) have. Ye...Corey,<br /><br />Search this blog, I (and others) have. Yes, it is a very nice bible.Timothyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12530713931306188305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-17890150397833558782017-05-23T23:52:58.598-07:002017-05-23T23:52:58.598-07:00@Steve Molitor. Steve, you asked what makes somet...@Steve Molitor. Steve, you asked what makes something "literary"?<br /><br />In regards to Bible translations, it's not about having a lot of thees and thous. It more about the writing style being of high literally quality: using excellent diction and phrasing with strong rhetorical flourishes. In regards to the Bible, a writing style that's suitable for proclamation.<br /><br />We always should remember that the Bible wasn't written to be read silently. It was written to be proclaimed out loud and be heard. A Bible translation of high literary quality lends itself to this. Its words inspire the faithful to action and devotion.<br />Peter T.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-41142996703182100002017-05-02T12:36:33.118-07:002017-05-02T12:36:33.118-07:00I think one option for the NABRE is simply to allo...I think one option for the NABRE is simply to allow for <i>alternate</i> notes. For example, allow the Didache NABRE to publish their notes without the NABRE notes. <br /><br />One size does not fit all, so this would better help "the children of the Church ... safely and profitably become conversant with the Sacred Scriptures and be penetrated with their spirit."<br /><br />By requiring all publications of the NABRE to use the same set of notes actually works against the above goal, IMHO.<br /><br />This could mean that the NABRE folks would feel the need approve of any alternate notes, increasing their workload. But since they are strongly maintaining the copyright, they have chosen to shoulder that burden. They have tacitly approved or at least acquiesced to the Didache notes anyway. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18075867664983204817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-74198790704108508572017-05-02T01:33:24.336-07:002017-05-02T01:33:24.336-07:00Thanks for the various corrections concerning foot...Thanks for the various corrections concerning footnotes / annotations in Catholic bibles. I appear to have been mistaken, misled - I guess - by the variety in size and style (and sometimes location, e.g., RSV-CE) of these additions in practice. The NAB(RE) appears to be simply one particular way of doing this - and the discussion should be whether there is a better way, not whether one should abandon that way...<br /><br />I stand by my comment though that the Church should publish her materials "for free usage, including commercial one" with an appropriate license that protects the integrity and attribution of the text. Yes, there will be some abuse of that, not doubt. But I think the benefits will far outweigh such negatives. Matthew Doenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-71253374818841375832017-04-30T23:53:51.402-07:002017-04-30T23:53:51.402-07:00You guys should do a review of the Harper Collins ...You guys should do a review of the Harper Collins NABRE. Its actually pretty nice.Corey Cordellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15768578142902789124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-70574775943680167732017-04-30T09:25:07.930-07:002017-04-30T09:25:07.930-07:00Ronny, I totally agree.
Having one single Catholi...Ronny, I totally agree.<br /><br />Having one single Catholic Bible translation for 21st century American English speaking Catholic Christians is very important.<br /><br />Having one single Bible used Liturgically (and I mean both in the Divine Liturgy/Holy Mass and the Liturgy of the Hours), in both public and private study (Bible groups, Universities, personal study, etc.), and for devotions (copies of prayer books, rosary pamphlets, personal devotion) etc. would foster a much more biblically literate American Catholic Church.<br /><br />When you are using one version in Mass (modified 1970/1986 NAB), one version in the LOTH (adapted 1970 NAB), another version at school (often the NRSV-CE), another version for personal study (often a RSV-2CE or DR), yet another version in public devotion (often the NABRE or RSV-CE) and even ANOTHER version for personal devotion (often a JB, Knox, or RSV-CE) - it makes it nearly impossible to memorize the Sacred Texts. <br /><br />And when memorizing becomes untenable, internalization also slips, and when people can neither memorize nor internalize the Sacred Scriptures, they become spiritually malnourished from lack of receiving the spiritual nourishment that comes from eating the Word of God.Jason MSpyridonPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02685786813645632596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-2136509212613085092017-04-30T07:02:07.885-07:002017-04-30T07:02:07.885-07:00Ronny, I hope your right!Ronny, I hope your right!rolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00950594541531178789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-56804092046709567162017-04-29T21:52:39.531-07:002017-04-29T21:52:39.531-07:00http://www.ccwatershed.org/blog/2015/jun/8/revised...http://www.ccwatershed.org/blog/2015/jun/8/revised-grail-psalter-will-be-revised-again/<br /><br />I offer this link to everyone who assumes that the revised Grail Psalms are the assumed new psalter of any new lectonary. Their status is in doubt. I have also seen reports that a further revision to the NABRE may be what ultimately ends up in the new lectonary, presumably this even newer NABRE psalter would be published with the new NABRE NT, wherever that's finally completed.<br /><br />Also, I have a VERY orthodox (small "o") missal from the Midwest Theological Forum that prints a version of the NAB Psalms for it's reproduction of the Mass readings, daily and Sunday, with no mention of the Grail Psalms (revised or otherwise) anywhere on it's copyright page. I've been to churches that match with this psalter, the original Grail, and revised Grail. The psalter situation right now seems to be a mess, and probably isn't going to get fixed any time soon.<br /><br />All this confusion makes me think, "who cares what translation it is! Can't we just get some consistency!" The more I make a habit of reading directly from the lectionary and practice the LOTH, the more I come to appreciate the NAB. Is it my favorite? No, but it doesn't deserve even half the hatred it gets online. And if it's the translation that finally ends this wack-a-mole inconsistency in liturgy, study, and private devotion, finally giving the American Church a text that it can really live the faith with in all instances where scripture is read, I say BRING IT ON!!!!Ronny Tadenanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-42720813027263740362017-04-29T10:28:11.370-07:002017-04-29T10:28:11.370-07:00I like the Oxford Large Print NABRE which also has...I like the Oxford Large Print NABRE which also has the notes in the back of each book.rolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00950594541531178789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-1255025174975426052017-04-29T10:08:29.132-07:002017-04-29T10:08:29.132-07:00Peter, the Catholic Church in the U.S. has and is ...Peter, the Catholic Church in the U.S. has and is currently using the 1970 NAB Psalms in our Mass! The Liturgy of the Hours in the U.S. ( published by CBPC) uses the grail Psalms and the 1970 NAB text in most parts. The 1991 NAB Psalms are the ones that most people think about as a problem ( vertical inclusive language)! The current NABRE Psalms are better ( in my opinion) than the the revised grail psalms. The Revised Grail Psalms will be used in the future Lectionary, which to me is a shame because I would like to see the whole future revised NABRE used?!? Maybe the revised grail psalms are more singable? Maybe Marry Sperry knows the answer to thus?rolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00950594541531178789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-7247679031774817032017-04-29T09:00:14.489-07:002017-04-29T09:00:14.489-07:00Speaking for myself only, my desire for a NABRE wi...Speaking for myself only, my desire for a NABRE without footnotes is only for the ease of uncluttered reading.<br /><br />I am a distractible reader and a lack of action on the page helps me focus on the text.<br /><br />I like the Oxford editions for the reason that the footnotes and cross references are moved to the back of each book. My Oxford Compact is pretty small though. I have young eyes and can read it fine, but I may look for a bigger one for reasons simply of comfort.Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-15364087623239332132017-04-29T05:44:26.378-07:002017-04-29T05:44:26.378-07:00Matthew Doe
Canon 825 section 1b states "......Matthew Doe<br /><br />Canon 825 section 1b states "... For the publication of [Sacred Scripture and] their translations into the vernacular, it is also required that they be approved by the same authority and provided with necessary and sufficient annotations.<br /><br />Footnotes are therefore required under Canon Law to be printed with Catholic Bibles...<br /><br />Which is why basically any Catholic Bible - even the RSV-2CE - has at least basic commentary in the volume.Jason MSpyridonPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02685786813645632596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-45769027464727986902017-04-29T05:41:25.726-07:002017-04-29T05:41:25.726-07:00This, in my opinion, is the most sufficient argume...This, in my opinion, is the most sufficient argument for footnotes, from #25 of Dei Verbum;<br />"It devolves on sacred bishops "who have the apostolic teaching"(7) to give the faithful entrusted to them suitable instruction in the right use of the divine books, especially the New Testament and above all the Gospels. This can be done through translations of the sacred texts, which are to be provided with the necessary and really adequate explanations so that the children of the Church may safely and profitably become conversant with the Sacred Scriptures and be penetrated with their spirit.<br /><br />Furthermore, editions of the Sacred Scriptures, provided with suitable footnotes, should be prepared also for the use of non-Christians and adapted to their situation. Both pastors of souls and Christians generally should see to the wise distribution of these in one way or another."<br /><br />As far as I'm concerned, that settles it. And that ends my involvement in the discussion of footnotes that always derails any online discussion of the NABRE.<br /><br />Besides, family caregiver duties call.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15821656759159317434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-43439904449633227212017-04-29T04:45:41.879-07:002017-04-29T04:45:41.879-07:00This comment is for Rolf.
Rolf, we have never had...This comment is for Rolf.<br /><br />Rolf, we have never had the NAB Psalms. They have never been approved by the Vatican for use in the mass. We've always had the Grail Psalms and this one fact, with all due respect to NABRE lovers, is the thing that makes me question the translation. If the work is not good enough for the responsorial Psalm, why is it good enough for the rest of the Liturgy of the Word?<br /><br />Having said that, at my parish we always substitute Marty Haugen's version of the Psalm, (e.g., if it's the 23rd Psalm, we'll sing Shepherd Me O God) for the real Grail Psalm. We never have the real McCoy. How that abomination can be justified, when the NABRE is not good enough. will remain one of the wonders of the world. I am not a fan of the NABRE but at least it's imprimatured. Marty is a former Lutheran now UCC and he doesn't belong in the mass.<br /><br />By the way, if you can't stand the lay out and "art" work of the St Joseph NABRE (the pics which portray Jesus as an angry axe murderer)Oxford publishes a plain text version with notes at the end of each book. I use it all the time. <br /><br />Peter BrennanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-50767826183718633372017-04-28T21:25:36.403-07:002017-04-28T21:25:36.403-07:00I have to say, I don't really see the logic of...I have to say, I don't really see the logic of saying that because sometimes the notes in a given Catholic Bible may be bad, therefore, there shouldn't be any notes at all. Ummm....actually, that just means that the notes should be BETTER.<br /><br />This requirement in Canon Law that Bibles should not be published without notes is one the major reasons why the notes in Catholic Bibles are usually much more scholarly and of much better quality than those in Protestant Bibles. <br /><br />I agree that the notes in the NABRE don't always uphold the teaching of the Church, and sometimes seem designed to undermine it, nevertheless, there is a lot of really good information in those notes that really do help you understand the Bible better. The notes are particularly useful when they point out when the Hebrew text is employing a pun, which it does often. It is usually not easy, or even possible, to translate a pun from one language to another, but when a pun is employed, it is usually significant, and the NABRE notes are the only commentary I have ever seen that makes a consistent to point out the text has made a pun, and explain the meaning of the pun.<br /><br />As the old saying goes 'abusus not tollit usus' i.e. 'the abuse does not abolish the use.' This is a good legal and moral principle, and it is a good Catholic principle, or at least it SHOULD BE treated as a good Catholic principle because that one little Latin phrase 'abusus not tollit usus' refutes about 90% or more of the complaints that fundamentalists have about the Catholic Church.<br /><br />Just because notes are sometimes bad, doesn't mean we should just get rid of notes completely.Biblical Catholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861274187709444522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-73635054787943792212017-04-28T20:12:15.650-07:002017-04-28T20:12:15.650-07:00Great article -- I appreciate the positive view of...Great article -- I appreciate the positive view of the NAB and the NABRE. I have always found it strange that we haven't been able to have a version of the Bible for the laity that is in substantial conformity to the version used in the liturgy. I thought that one of the Vatican's approaches towards Bible translation is that the Holy See wanted to see a single version of the Bible for each major international language group that would be the "official" translation for purposes of study and use in the liturgy. Maybe I was wrong about that...Mark D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05000893614655251587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-68627464276282939942017-04-28T18:18:00.370-07:002017-04-28T18:18:00.370-07:00Ed Rio and Dan,
There is no general rule requirin...Ed Rio and Dan,<br /><br />There is no general rule requiring explanatory footnotes in Catholic bibles. There's not even one for Catholic bibles in English. As far as I am aware, the NAB(RE) is the one and only instance of a Catholic national bishop's conference (namely that of the USA) decreeing that a specific translation they have copyright over may only be published if printed with the explanatory footnotes they have prepared for the text.<br /><br />It's difficult to prove a negative (namely that no general rule exists). However, I have plenty of Catholic bibles in at least four different languages. "Translator's footnotes" are common, i.e., those that provide alternative readings, additional material only found in some manuscripts or explain an uncommon word. This makes sense, since really the translation is only complete with them. But NAB(RE)-style explanatory footnotes are only found in some of my Catholic bibles. And at least for some of those I have another version of the same translation that omits them, showing clearly that these explanatory footnotes are not required. Again for some I have versions with two different sets of explanatory footnotes for the same translation, showing that neither of them is required. They are simply optional extras.<br /><br />Finally, I am highly sceptical of claims that reading the bible has turned somebody into an atheist. But be that as it may, it is not sufficient as an argument for requiring explanatory footnotes. At a minimum it would have to be shown that including these footnotes would have stopped the apostasy. If this is the case, then presumably giving these atheists the appropriate footnotes now would convert them back to Christianity, since they suddenly realise their mistaken interpretation ... well, you go and try that. I'm not going to hold my breath though.<br /><br />(I agree that one needs the Church to properly interpret the bible. I just do not agree that footnotes is how this must or should happen.)Matthew Doenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-38355948490607159072017-04-28T10:59:54.575-07:002017-04-28T10:59:54.575-07:00Yes, you are correct about that although some vers...Yes, you are correct about that although some versions that are "Catholic" are text only.Dannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-34386267229338009692017-04-28T10:25:09.745-07:002017-04-28T10:25:09.745-07:00Quote from Matthew Doe:"The point is that foo...Quote from Matthew Doe:"The point is that footnotes - unlike scripture itself - can weaken or contradict the Catholic faith."<br /><br />I've read many claims by atheists that the Bible made them that way. A proper understanding of the Bible can only be from reading it through the lens of the Church's teachings and interpretations of it. <br /><br />If memory serves, Catholic Bibles are required to have footnotes. I can't recall where I read that, and a quick Google was no help.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15821656759159317434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-42239483377492063222017-04-28T06:16:24.235-07:002017-04-28T06:16:24.235-07:00Reading what Biblical Catholic and Matthew have be...Reading what Biblical Catholic and Matthew have been saying regarding footnotes: If you want solid Catholic footnotes that do not, in my estimation, contradict the Magisterium, then look no further than the Navarre Bible. Wonderful, insightful and solidly faithful to the Church and Magisterium. Just a thought.....Dannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-49243153543275357012017-04-28T01:05:23.714-07:002017-04-28T01:05:23.714-07:00Biblical Catholic,
The idea that you can enforce ...Biblical Catholic,<br /><br />The idea that you can enforce properly Catholic bible interpretation by footnotes is just silly. Unlike scripture, footnotes have no guarantee of Divine inspiration. And we are talking here about the NAB(RE), where the discussion about the footnotes precisely has been that they contradict or at least weaken the Catholic faith. Whether you agree with that judgement or not is besides the point. The point is that footnotes - unlike scripture itself - can weaken or contradict the Catholic faith. And further, that ecclesial authority can be involved in publishing material, like such footnotes, that is decidedly suboptimal in presenting the Catholic faith. Finally, footnotes to bibles are not a regular way of publishing insights / decisions of the magisterium. Neither has the magisterium ever been in the business of closely interpreting biblical texts in the style of footnotes, i.e., basically verse by verse. It is a bad idea to try to cure the lack of formation of Catholics, and their overall disinterest in any writings of the Holy See, by squeezing doctrinal material into footnote commentaries of the bible. If at all, then there's some value in the "Didache" approach of quoting the CCC. But that is a type of "study bible". Meaning that you can easily separate the study from the bible, namely by reading the CCC and the bible as two distinct works.<br /><br />Concerning copyright, or rather licenses that waive it, you seem plainly uninformed. It is simply not the case that all protection is lost for a text just because one makes it available without charge. For example, <br />https://creativecommons.org/licenses/<br />"Attribution-NoDerivs CC BY-ND<br />This license allows for redistribution, commercial and non-commercial, as long as it is passed along unchanged and in whole, with credit to you."<br />means you can legally suppress any attempt to modify the text. And it means that anybody who is using the text has to credit you. But otherwise people are free to publish and use it. There are many different licenses to fit nearly any usage pattern, and frankly, it's not particularly difficult for someone with access to a decent team of lawyers to create your own if none of them fit.Matthew Doenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-33056725858516470452017-04-27T19:25:11.222-07:002017-04-27T19:25:11.222-07:00I just signed on to "pile on" with anoth...I just signed on to "pile on" with another thank you for a great post... Agreed!! <br />[and the restrictions on R. Knox are interesting news to me too... That does explain a lot] <br />SHALOM citizen DAKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06156789004571021008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-71438435539424229522017-04-27T11:51:15.586-07:002017-04-27T11:51:15.586-07:00Rolf thanks for the info.
What happened to the g...Rolf thanks for the info. <br /><br />What happened to the goal of a bible that matches the lectionary? Sigh.Steve Molitorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07269694833796718686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-10799741029286180802017-04-27T11:38:54.470-07:002017-04-27T11:38:54.470-07:00"Fourth, all liturgical and scriptural docume..."Fourth, all liturgical and scriptural documents the Church publishes should be published with a generous copyright-free license"<br /><br />Again, absolutely not! Church texts are copyrighted for the same reason that any other text is copyrighted: to protect the text from unauthorized use or unauthorized alternations. Given the great harm that could be caused as a result of unauthorized use, it is more than reasonable that precautions be taken to prevent it. <br /><br />Texts that are not copyrighted tend to be altered in ways that the author of the work would not approve of. Look at what was done with the text of the American Standard Version of the Bible before it was copyrighted. The Church cannot allow this to happen to her official documents.<br /><br /><br /><br />As it is, the copyrights are not very strictly enforced. All Church documents are available freely on the Internet at Vatican.va, and the Church making any 'claims' on the copyrights by, for example, issuing a 'cease and desist' letter to those who may have the text posted online, or anything like that, and the Catholic Church has certainly never used the copyrights to try to silence dissent or criticism, the way that the 'Church' of Scientology does. So, given how easy it is for anyone to obtain a copy of any Church document free of charge, this is really a solution in search of a problem.<br />Biblical Catholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861274187709444522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5272296692697032264.post-63258677645240259452017-04-27T09:00:54.987-07:002017-04-27T09:00:54.987-07:00Steve from what I have heard is that the 2025(?) N...Steve from what I have heard is that the 2025(?) NABRE will contain the same Psalms that are currently in the NABRE but the new Lectionary will use the Revised Grail Psalms.rolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00950594541531178789noreply@blogger.com